Gordon: Spititual reggae is made by spiritual people. How difficult is it to make such reggae in a society of materialism and full rationalism?

Ngoni: Well, you have to have certain strength to overcome still, you know? Because, all right, spiritual man makes spiritual reggae, but the roots of reggae is about suffering, reggae is a cry really. It's a sufferer's cry; so therefore all depends on the strength you have to overcome, cause some man can overcome, some man will run buttons and do things like that, some man will go out there and do craziest things beca' they cannot overcome. But if you have a certain knowledge that all this things around is a temptation which leads you to destruction really because you get so involved, to overcome these, you know, deep problems, really, you have a chance of living above these things. But everybody, we all live with it, we all live with these material things around us. Nobody can say that they don't deal with it. Well I deal with it, you understand? But you have to lift yourself onto a little higher level, where it doesn't...destroy you or make you so possessed to have this or that, better car, video, these things. Because people go out there and thief to get these things, you understand? And they forget the basic principle of life which is being able to live with one another. They forget about this which is important. That why turmoil in the world live, beca' people can't live with each other, understand?

Gordon: When do you think the racial fight is going to stop? Especially between black people and white people. Is this strife going to stop at all?

Ngoni: Well, there is no real racial struggle, may I say that right now, there isn't a racial struggle. That is employed to stop people from going a little bit further. It's just an obstacle which they put in our way. All over the world you go, you will find mixed people, mixed races, and different people. Because it's like, once I and I sit here together, for once I and I begin to communicate as man to man, you will see all these differences as non-existent. They don't really exist. They put those things to obstruct the reaching of a certain level, as unity amongst men, you understand?

Clarence: Yeah, man. In reality the thing is not between black and white, the thing about a man living with a man goes first, you know. In reality it is about good and bad. Thats what reality is about, good and bad.

Gordon: Can you believe that ASWAD say the same thing? I mean, my question was not the same, but the conclusion was the same.

Ngoni: Yes, because it does not change, that thing. It's the same all the time!

Gordon: Your first big success was the album Live at the counter Eurovision 79. Do you think that you are better as a live band? In other words, do you think that you have succeeded in adequately transferring the energy of your live performances to your studio works, like Wise and Foolish or Earth?

Ngoni: Well, yeah. I believe that we are better live, because we've always been the band which performed more live shows. Not like other bands, just really making records things like that. Where they "fill up", they get that force on their record. We get that force through our live performances. You see, when you have live shows you have that atmosphere, everybody knows that.

Gordon: My personal view is that on your third studio album Musi-O-Tunya you came closest to bringing that live energy to a studio. Especially in songs like "Ireation" and "Praises". Probably Musi-O-Tunya is the best studio album you've recorded to date. And production is very good.

Ngoni: Well, you see, that goes like, the more studio work we do, the more we'll get those vibes into the studio music, you understand? You have to check that.

Clarence: If one doesn't progress, one is going backwards.

Gordon: Listening to the track "Ireation" though, I had Bunny Wailer in mind. [They laugh with acceptance]

Clarence: That man will tell you better, but if it does sound like Bunny Wailer, I don't think that's deliberate.

Ngoni: It's just the atmosphere, I suppose you can say that. Yes.

Gordon: Do you see yourself consciously making a commercial single in order to make a big, real breakthrough on the national charts? I mean a good international, commercial single which you would be satisfied with.

Ngoni: Let me say this to you. You never know what's going to be a commercial success. You never know, you just keep your sincerity and out of that sincerity good will come. Isn't it?

Clarence: All right, as Ngoni says. Every man talks about his thing differently, but if a man is doing something that is good, right, there is no need to change, because people must come to that good.

Gordon: Actually you believe that the audience should follow artists, rather than artists following the audience.

Ngoni: Yes. We believe in what we are doing. Our followers, right...we have a certain, how could I call it...

Clarence: Well, certain cult following.

Ngoni: Yeah, but, we have certain (things) we have to do for them. So we have to live up to what we say. If we are aware of what we believe in, and that is that we shouldn't betray things, there's no reason why we should change. I mean what is like a man making soul music? Well, let them be! Let them be! You understand? Because we have our following, it could be ten. We played to one man already, you know. So even if there is one man, we are not really worried about that. Figures...you understand? We'll just hold on to our sincerity and if big success come out a that sincerity, it will be a good success. Because directly, we have children, and we want to do what we do for our children, and our children's children. Something that we can grow together with. And that takes time to build. Commercial success cannot really give us those things, you understand?

Clarence: The other thing is, who makes the music popular, you know? When you check the things which became popular, it is not that people who go out and buy a record decide that music is popular. It is the media who decide to push a thing up to a person, to tell him what is popular. Therefore you have lots of strong artists out there playing music, but because the media does not think that music is popular, people never get a chance to even hear it. It is the media that shape what people should hear or what people should relate to at any particular time. Just like the people who made reggae music popular in the world. They were not foolish artists, the artists, like Burning Spear and Culture, they were the backbone to roots of reggae music. And they are the people who are not going to benefit very much from reggae music. I mean, financially and commercially. A lot of people from there that become number 1 on the reggae charts aren't going to make from it, but others are going to make out of it. Well, then, that stands true for all the black music, from blues, jazz, soul. We are US to take that shape. There're certain ways we've learned from that, you know. For example, take the Last Poets. I don't know about the Last Poets, but for years they were the only American group that was dealing with the roots music. Telling black Americans about their African inheritance and slavery and things like that, right? They didn't make any money from it. The music was too advanced. And now the American media come up with it again and call it rappin'. And that's what the Last Poets were doing years before. You know what I mean, years and years before, like from the sixties. And now they come back with the same thing, they shape it, but they don't talk about Africa and people, they are talking about big "Zodiac" car and all the fantasies of the world.

Gordon: Are those the reasons why you have established your own co-operative label, People Unite?

Ngoni: It's the co-operative to work together. To co-operate socially.

Clarence: To have social awareness of living together and helping each other. You see, I was not born in England. I was born in the Caribbean where people are used to a basic form of social living. Most people think, all right, we are living here in England and things are quite easy. But, in reality it's not so easy, you know? If you look from the outside, it may seem easy, but from the inside, there's a lot of hardship within. You have so many people who are unemployed and unable to do something creative, which is important. So we came together to build for ourself, right, rather than just being used and drove by whats already out deh.

Gordon: You have played in many different places. In Africa, Zimbabwe, Zambia. You have been in Eastern Europe as well. The response of audiences must vary in different places.

Ngoni: Well, there is a difference, really, because in certain places music relates to people differently, you see. Directly, all right, like in Africa we sing a song the people can relate (to), because they are going through that livity. Like in England, you sing a song and some people really don't check us, because they live totally different from what we are saying. Yes, you do get a different feedback from people, you know what I mean?

Clarence: Yes there is a difference, yet there are a lot of similarities. One thing I am sure (of), everywhere we've played there've been people who could relate to what we say, through true facts, basic truth. Because, I think suffering is all over the world. I don't think there is a perfect place on the planet Earth right now.

Gordon: How many shows have you played in Poland?

Clarence: Eight shows. Eight very nice concerts. Response was very good, so we go again. Then we go to Russia. You see, places like Poland, Russia, that's a unique oportunity, because not very many people get a chance to get to play to people, as they would say, "on the other side". I mean people in the west, they would tell us, "look, people from Poland or East Germany are completely different people". The reality is that we are all the people of mankind. And to be able to relate to people of a different way of life and culture, that's very nice and important. Because it's reflecting...own culture. And that's nice, you know.

Gordon: You were victims of a racial attack in 1979 in Southall (district of London). Could you explain what actually happened?

Ngoni: Oh, gosh, you see...

Clarence: Well, England is a racist society. What happened to us is not unique because it happens to individual people all the time. The system says there is the middle class, the upper class, the working class and the black class...

Ngoni: [laughing ironically] And they call them the minorities. You know, really, they have to exercise authority over minorities. All right, I am going to tell you this. It is very difficult to convey what actually happened, you understand my brethren? We can't really tell you that, it's very difficult. Certain things you probably wouldn't even believe. Blair Peach, teacher, was killed, Clarence was in a coma...

Gordon: You will keep the message going?

Ngoni: Yes I, as long as Jah gives I strength to do that, you know.